“My goal would be to make something so absurd that everyone is just yelling ‘oh my god I have no idea what is happening’ but they somehow manage.”
Welcome to the second (and concluding) part of this interview with the extraordinary Nathalie Lawhead.
If you haven’t already, please read the first part of the interview first.
Now, let’s pick up where we left off…
Paul: Is Flash the first thing you used to make computer art? Did you mess around with art software as a kid or anything?
Nathalie: Well there was Mario Paint, but MS Paint (although back then it was called something else I can’t remember) was the very first. No surprise. My most elaborate work of art created in that was a portrait of my Game Boy. There was also Corel Draw, Dabbler, and Photoshop. I used Fauve Matisse (mainly) before Flash. There were quite a few programs I was into, and can’t totally recall.
I always had a weakness for vector art. There’s just something about it. I played with Future Splash (just tinkering), and then totally went all out with Flash 4. That’s when I got really serious about what I was doing. Before that it was just art created on a computer. Illustrator is good too, but I don’t use it so much lately. I think that Flash is among the greatest pieces of software ever, albeit most controversial. It’s not a popular thing to say these days, mostly because of all the hate drummed up for it… but you know tool snobbery (someone on Twitter use that term, I love it) is the worst.
I’m very happy they are renaming it Animate, because this will take a lot of pressure off the community. I thought I should avoid social media when they made that announcement, but all the sarcasm and humor from the Flash community totally revived me. It’s a nice new beginning for many of us. At least for me it feels like that.
I guess I’m an Animate developer now. :) Has a nice ring to it.
Paul: Did you play videogames growing up? Your work is full of references to classic arcade and console games.
Nathalie: Yes. All the time. I lived and breathed computer games. We did have a SNES, but only owned a handful of games on that system that we played to death (we never bought any others). So my console nostalgia really only starts and ends with those few titles.
I mostly played PC. Anything on a floppy disk was my favorite. Floppy disks totally fascinated me.
When internet connections finally got better, I would download them. It was a real investment, figuring out what to download next because it would often take a day to download just one game (hit or miss).
You know, a great title that’s still amazing today is Jump N’ Bump. Also, Chickens 2 was totally awesome. It’s interesting because old-school PC games (how I remember it being) where really oddball, often under-polished, wacky labors of love. Graphics are pretty non-existent, so use your imagination. I remember there was this one version of Defender where the person made the sound effects silly, and I thought playing it was so hilarious.
It’s a strong contrast to how you look back at old console games (Nintendo, Sega, etc…) which were super polished, high-end art experiences. Although then I thought console games where the hottest thing ever, when I got lucky enough to be able to play them at friends’ or in stores, now I realize that it’s the wacky labors of love that left the biggest impression on me.
Paul: Your art has a very distinctive visual style, a kind of quasi-retro, lo-fi, pixelated, distorted look. But it’s not like anyone else’s version of “retro”. Can you give me a brief overview of how you achieve that? I guess, both conceptually and technically?
Nathalie: You know, looking back, interesting thing about all these early art programs is that they tried really hard to imitate real world art tools. Although this is great, I think computers have an aesthetic totally unique to them. In light of art history, and all the styles, mediums, and tools before computers, this is something really exciting (and actually new) that we can explore and define. I remember one art professor telling me that there is nothing in art that you can do that is truly new. Someone else has already done that at some point.
With computers that’s not the case. We have a chance of doing stuff that’s just not heard of before. I still hold on to this for the web.
So you know things like dither, glitching, Atkinson’s, Floyd-Steinberg, make a list of all the algorithms possible… these are things that exist because of computers. This is art that would not be possible, and we would really not have a concept of, or understand (no context), if it weren’t for the digital. I think that’s really fascinating.
So incorporating all this, and exploring these further as actual art styles, is sort of like a celebration of our digital world.
Like, you know, when you make pixel art, this is an actual art aesthetic that is just as meaningful as black and white photography, impressionism, or realism. I think the older all this gets the more respected it will be.
At any rate, when I use all these styles, this is what it means to me.
Technically speaking, I mix programming these effects with modifying them by hand (often). Frame by frame animation + code. It’s sort of like traditional animation, but in a glitchier low-fi sense. I think doing this makes the art style a lot more interesting than if you just used some coded filter dropped over everything. That’s too universal or repetitive. Intentionally controlling the outcome makes it really beautiful and a lot more meaningful. It’s fun visual communication.
I started from the classic art background and that’s all about controlling a piece to visually communicate, so I like the idea of the chaos that computers are mixed with human intervention.
Paul: You use a lot of classic B-movie iconography. Do you have any favorite B-movies?
Nathalie: Oh man! Here. THE ultimate recourse for weird: archive.org!
They have all the old weird movies (specific favorite is Sci-Fi/Horror section). There you find the strangest gems that are just horrible.
Like Bela Lugosi here, at about 18:24, when he’s hitting his ungainly assistant. Is that acting? I don’t know. It’s amazing.
It’s a nice contrast to entertainment today that takes itself super serious, and is totally polished.
My current favorite (it dethroned all the others) is The Man Who Saved The World (Turkish Star Wars). It’s the worst thing you can watch and still enjoy. Maybe this is describing my games.
There are a few good Bruceploitation films too, that are really something else. I think the thing that does it for me are the exaggerated dying scenes.
Although, for my work, I’ve gotten the most mileage from old commercials (Prelinger Archives, and Ephemeral Films). Those are invaluable, and I highly recommend looking through them to anyone interested in weird assets.
I mean, just look at this.
Or this.
And this (this one is really bad).
Also, here if you want to get your chimp on.
If you are a fan of Anatomically Incorrect Dinosaurs (secret source disclosure), you may recognize this guy. I liked how he talks.
Or try the song here, about 50 seconds in or at 15:00 (that’s what is playing backwards on alienmelon.com, and other places, because subliminal message from Satan to American youths)…
I could probably go on and on about all the wacky finds on Archive, but…
In terms of B-movie iconography… I think this fits really well with old-school DOS/PC games because the themes, level of maturity, and extensive “suspension of disbelief” required, are about the same. They share a lot of similarities. It’s also just fun because perfection gets old.
I mean, things are most interesting when they are kind of broken. It’s a great aesthetic.
Paul: You’ve made a number of awesome and silly “generators”. Where did your interest in these types of interactive computer phenomena come from?
Nathalie: Making them can get pretty hilarious because the results surprise you. It’s an easy joke-thing to make.
Text is fun, like a breakup letter generator. Just throw in a bunch of random reasons people give, and it spits out this absurd thing.
I eventually went into the visual direction, starting with the frog one. I think that was a lot of fun because the premise is “this is you as a frog” and people like that. I like it. It was a sincere question.
Anatomically Incorrect Dinosaurs was supposed to be like that. Just a simple little disfigured dinosaur generator but it got really elaborate.
I still want to make a pizza generator. Procedurally generated pizza image, and a procedurally generated recipe to follow in order to make it. I would hope that it yields actual edible pizzas, but the way I know generators, edible will probably not be the case.
Paul: Do your projects generally arise from art you’re making, or do you come up with the concept of how something will be played with first?
Nathalie: Usually it starts with a joke. The joke is in the interaction. The visuals support the absurdity.
Anatomically Incorrect Dinosaurs started when I made a weird dinosaur illustration and posted it on Twitter. People liked it, then I couldn’t let go of the idea and pursued it.
There’s one project I was working on before getting into the desktop (Steam) version of Tetrageddon Games. I’m dying to get back to it because it has a lot of room to be hilarious. It’s going to be a multiplayer stealth game about stealing candy from babies. There’s another where you’re knights and ride giant frogs and you fight other knights on frogs. Frogs, not horses. These ideas were for a multiplayer game bundle, but I have to finish Tetrageddon Games for the desktop first… I can’t wait to finish so I can pursue these. Playing on your own is one thing, but if you get more people involved, I think you can ask them to do dumber weirder wronger things to each other, and really mess with them. Imagine if a person loses, and you single them out, and have other players do “bad thing X” to the loser. I can see all sorts of ridiculous social interactions.
My goal would be to make something so absurd that everyone is just yelling “oh my god I have no idea what is happening” but they somehow manage.
Paul: And then the audio? You do most of your own music, including the vocal stylings, except what you pull from the public domain? Or, well, when you’re not mic-ing a sentient potato…
Nathalie: Except for Monkey Fortunetell, yes (the music is by TORLEY). I use FLStudio. Sourcing from the public domain is great for a number of aesthetic reasons, but it also saves a lot of time. Stuff like FROGGY can get hard because after you’re done with the art, coding, animation, you have to go do audio + music. By then you are pretty burned out. Not saying I don’t like it, but it can be a lot of work.
A fun thing to do is to combine synthesized audio with public domain sounds. The mixing of real and fake can be pretty weird. Synthesized speech is amazing if you add that to a cute little creature (like a frog), it turns into some disturbing character, because of its monotonous tone. You don’t expect cute creatures to have monster voices.
I haven’t mastered sounding like a guy yet. I need guy voices. I tried. I thought if I yell-growl dialogue really loud (because guy voices have that raspiness), and run it through a number of things in FLStudio, and turn the pitch down, then up after a few more filters… that I could pull it off. It worked in theory.
Paul: Tell me about the desktop version of Tetrageddon for Steam. What will be different?
Nathalie: Web and desktop are two totally different experiences. When browsing the web, it is a very linear interaction. Kind of “chose your own adventure”. You follow links from one to the other, get distracted, branching choices… That’s the gist of the online version. A corner of the internet that went crazy.
The desktop version is going to have many layers of interaction, play, and visuals to get distracted by. I want its complexity, and quality, to hold up to the online version but in a uniquely desktop sense.
I get to play with this new environment (do weird shit to it/in it), so that’s pretty exciting.
In the end, if you think about it, Desktop is a layered environment. You have all sorts of things happening over other things. This is what I’m aiming to capture. Layers of interactivity.
It’s also a nice change of environment, because I get to put more into it without worrying about file size. It’s very different for me. I usually have to worry about every 100 kilobytes and figure out how I want to “break that up” if it ends up being too big. There’s lots I wanted to originally do with Tetrageddon but couldn’t because of limitations like that. Now I get to do it.
Paul: Will it be for sale? And will the web version remain free and open source?
Nathalie: Yes. That’s the plan. I am hoping to make money from it so I can support my next game projects. Maybe I will get lucky and this will be self-sustaining, and I can live happily ever after just making game after game… That’s my dream.
…Otherwise I would have to find a gamedev sugar daddy, and that would suck because that would cut too much into production time. I can’t do that.
I also want the web version to remain free and accessible.
Despite how difficult this year has been, I still believe in it. I can’t let go of the web, and it would be very hard for me to stop or “take it down”. Too much work and heart went into it. I’m going to continue no matter what.
Open source will also continue to be a thing. I’m hoping to eventually clean up the source part of it, and offer the assets in more practical usable formats. Right now you have to really dig to find useful things.
I offer enough of an explanation on the site for why I do that. I’m not going to let go of that either.
I know I run the risk of taking a financial hit. I can hear all the comments of “why would I pay for this, it’s already free”, but if I do a good job with the desktop version that shouldn’t be the case.
It’s a risk, but you know… you only live once.
Paul: You’re using vector-based pixel art. Can you tell me what vector-based pixel art is? And what its advantages are?
Nathalie: Rule of thumb for Tetrageddon is to use as much vector art as possible. Vector art, by nature, is very scalable. It simply looks beautiful full-screen (no loss in detail or quality).
So I make pixel art using vector art tools. It’s really scalable that way. It’s also extra flexible, and I find it’s easier to do stuff with it.
I know the practicality of this approach can be argued, but basically if you resize (scale) bitmap formats, you can only go so far, and it’s only as re-usable as the quality of the image you are working with. When animating, or creating complex effects, this matters.
So vector pixel art is awesome.
I realize that this impacts performance a lot, and vector is a bad choice if that’s a concern, but this can often be a double standard. I don’t think many complaints about vector art and performance are fair.
In comparison to many 3D experiences, it holds up quite well.
We are OK with 3D using lots of resources, but anything else (like 2D) should not.
When it comes to 2D, we are kind of unforgiving. This mindset is a bit flawed. 2D experiences are just as valid. So I think it’s interesting to see how far I can push vector art, and what aspects of it I can take advantage of that bitmap does not offer… The same as what people do when they explore pushing 3D, but with traditional animation instead.
Paul: You’ve worked on a few alternate reality games. First of all, was it as fun as it sounds? And secondly, how did those experiences inform the things you make now?
Nathalie: My role was largely to design one, later building it. Designing an ARG is lots of fun. I think this is a thing that is very unique, or shines the most, on the web.
We have decades of information on the internet just waiting to be used, or twisted to fit a narrative. For example, old Tweets, old “broken” articles, abandoned websites, Live Journals, MySpaces, Geocities, anything accessed through Way Back Machine… So collect that and make it fit the reality you are building (your narrative).
A great source of inspiration for this is actually conspiracy theorists. Not looking down at them at all, and this is not critical of them, but if you look at how they do it, it’s pretty identical to how you approach ARG making.
The critical part is to work with the right information. Whatever experience, visual look, other thrills, etc… you weave around that is entirely up to you. It’s the way you play with reality that really matters, and the web is the perfect playground for that.
There are other approaches, or tricks, you can do too that I don’t think are really practical. Like creating fake accounts, because to make that look legit you have to wait years (can’t just appear overnight). I noticed people tend to catch on to a lot of these tricks, so you want to minimize anything that causes suspicions (breaks them out of your reality). I think the most important part is manipulating what already exists. Be a conspiracy theorist for your own story world!
Worth mentioning is a pretty cool game, Viral Dusty Dead Identity Quiz. That actually had me fooled. They did a great job. It’s very ARG in its unique way, and the writing that went into it is amazing. Don’t want to spoil the experience, but it’s well worth checking out and studying.
I do still add a small flavor of that to what I do (in some of the websites), but it’s more of an afterthought. To do this right you really have to decide to make an ARG, and devote all of yourself to that.
Paul: Finally, a couple of the most prevalent recurring motifs in your work are frogs and potatoes. Is there any particular reason for this?
Nathalie: I didn’t choose frogs, frogs chose me.
When I was a kid we would often go visit my grandfather’s forest. He was a cool dude and taught me welding, see.
He owned some property in this really beautiful place. It was a result of Yugoslavia breaking up, and some Socialism related explanation about wealth distribution, so he ended up with it. Many people ended up with odd things. Long story…
Once a year this forest would totally overflow with frog eggs. This beautiful place looked like an alien exploded in it. Massive piles were everywhere. Literally in any place with water. Puddles especially. So we would try to give them the best possible chance and collect any pile of eggs that were in puddles (because those dry up), and put them in larger bodies of water. It was cute. They grow up so fast.
We would often save a few, and grow them up ourselves in our aquarium. This was not in any way successful because they would eat each other, and only one was always left. Sort of Hunger Games, but frog version. I feel bad about that. This was before internet so we did our best with our limited knowledge of how to raise frogs properly.
Frogs were always with me. I think they are my spirit animal. Ok, so frog story that really made me like frogs…
In this other place we lived, also close to forests… We were taking a walk one time and caught a frog that was frogging too close to the road. Frogs did that a lot and ended up frogpancakes, so it’s a good idea to try to take them to safer places where they could frog. This frog we found was a tiny frog too. The cutest frog ever. It obviously didn’t know any better.
We walked to the brook. This was a lengthy walk and allowed for much bonding with the frog. We grew to love this frog, and even named it.
So we were standing there at the edge of the brook, and let it go. This frog was a fabulous swimmer. We were cheering it on as it tried to swim as fast from us as possible.
Nearly to the other end of the brook, a fish came out of nowhere and swallowed it.
It all happened so fast. Frog was there one moment then gone the next.
We just stood there for the longest time totally mortified, trying to process what just happened. You could literally hear a pin drop… Or maybe not because water sounds.
This was a big fish too.
So… fast-forward to today. Maybe froggames are a subconscious guilt complex, or way of dealing with what happened that day. All I need now is for the little guy to come back and leave us notes saying “I kno what U did that Autumn!” And it would bring us all back together, trying to escape the vengeful frogbeast the little frog grew to be.
I’m not sure if I have as elaborate of an explanation for potatoes. I like potatoes.
Actually I do have a potato story, but I think it’s best to leave it at frog.
#nathalielawhead #tetrageddongames #free #gamedev #steam #anatomicallyincorrectdinosaurs #frogs
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